FAIR But Not Simple

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The following article was written For the AFA Newsletter, 6 March 2014

It is hard to argue with the ideals of the five thrusts of the Financial Advisory Industry Review or FAIR, namely, raise competence of Representatives, raise quality of Financial Advisers, make Financial Advisory a dedicated service, lower distribution cost and promote a culture of fair dealing.

The FAIR dealing outcomes promoted before FAIR were also hard to fault since they are all for clients’ good and all Financial Advisers agree they must put clients’ interest first.  However, while the three main recommendations of FAIR, namely, balanced scorecard framework, direct sales channel for basic insurance and web aggregator, have good intentions, they will not be easy to swallow and stomach although they may eventually prove good for the industry.  All three recommendations are client-centric and, therefore, worthy but they will not be easy or cheap to implement.

Of the three major recommendations, the balanced scorecard (BSC) will impact IFAs most.  No doubt there was great relief for all Representatives and the insurers when commissions were not banned totally, but the BSC pushed forward in its place to raise standards of practice will definitely prove costly.  The additional costs include increased compliance (the need for independent sales audit), new software to implement the penalty system, customer call-back and mystery checks.  These costs come on top of the inexorable increase in rentals and salaries, and already high compliance costs to implement AML/CFT and PEP procedures.

There is certainly a need for BSC and its monitoring of the four non-sales key performance indicators – understanding customers’ needs, suitability of product recommendations, adequacy of information disclosure and standards of professionalism and ethical conduct.  The challenge is how to achieve uniform implementation among the widely different firms with different business models, KYCs and compliance structures.  Fact-finding is not exactly a science much less analysis of the facts and recommending solutions.  It is also widely agreed that it is harder to have agreement on what is suitable for investment than for life insurance.  No two clients are alike and no two representatives think the same way, but somehow the BSC requires the FAs to set standards which are bound to differ from firm to firm.  The expectation must be that, given time, the industry will find its level but how will this come about?  Even if the sales process can be standardised, and it does not appear to be anytime soon, e.g. a standardised KYC, clients differ and their needs differ, and their choice will thus differ.

It will also be interesting to see how the independent sales auditor will go about his work and how he will settle disputes with representatives and managers who are likely to be more experienced in the business than him.  The procedure for settling dispute has been left to each firm to handle and this will also lead to difference in standards.  Since financial penalties are involved, disputes are to be expected.  Also to be expected will be more changes when BSC is actually implemented in 2015.

The Christian In The Marketplace

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The following article was written for the Brethern 150th Anniversary Book, 15 April 2014.


Until and unless churches and Christians see the marketplace as the primary place for evangelism and missions, the gospel will be lost on the vast majority of people.


Ed Silvoso, who is one of the earlier proponents of marketplace ministry and who wrote the book “Anointed For Business”, defined the marketplace as the combination of business, education and government which are the three arteries which flow into the heart of a city.  The marketplace thus includes all institutions or bodies or corporations and markets other than church and parachurch organisations, i.e. all the professional and business enterprises providing goods and services in both the public and private sectors.

The term may be used more narrowly by some to focus more on businesses.  Michael Baer’s book “Business As Mission” has inspired many Christians and Christian organisations to set up businesses for missions both locally and cross-culturally.

Marketplace ministry (MPM) refers to the missional role of Christians as God’s redemptive agents as salt, light, witness, ambassador and disciple maker in obedience to both the Great Commandment (Mark 12:29-31) and the Great Commission (Matthew 28:18-20).  Thus defined, MPM is clearly not a new issue since the early Christians made the marketplace the focal point of their ministry.  In fact, most of the followers of Jesus in the early church remained in full-time business and saw the marketplace as their parish.

But in recent years, Christians worldwide,Singapore not exempted, have become more aware of the strategic importance of MPM.  Christians, including the Brethren, have long regarded that God has a specific call, plan and purpose for every Christian to accomplish for the greatest glory of God and blessing to man.  A Christian may be called to be a full-time and fully supported Christian worker, whether in his church, a parachurch organisation or a missionary organisation.  Or he may be called to be a business owner (whether in a professional practice, industrial or commercial enterprise), or an employee, or even a tentmaker like Paul supporting himself while he serves actively in church or in the marketplace.  It is certainly encouraging to see today more elders and church members who are business owners or tentmakers.

Henry and Richard Blackaby’s book “God In The Marketplace” defines the Christian’s call as simply and solely to be like Jesus, i.e. Christ-likeness.  Christians are to honour God in every aspect of their lives.  “God is equally entitled to receive honour from us, whether we are teaching a Bible study, attending a board meeting, making a sales presentation, embarking on a business trip or relating to our family.”

The real measure of a Christian’s ministry is thus – how am I doing as a Christian, a servant of God, a witness and partner in the gospel, a member of the body of Christ and a neighbour in the community?

How I do professionally as a boss, employee or practitioner is really a secondary matter.  However, how we conduct ourselves and perform work is very important since the most common accusation against Christians is hypocrisy and inconsistency, i.e. Christians not walking the talk.  But the Christian’s conduct and work performance is not sufficient if he does not witness and share his faith, i.e. not talking the walk.


The importance of MPM is twofold.

Firstly, in terms of numbers and percentages, the majority of children and adults are in the marketplace (education and work) and they spend a large part of their days and their lives in the marketplace.  Going by statistics, only a few per cent of students and working adults will ever step into a church to hear the gospel.  The overwhelming majority will have to be reached for Christ in the marketplace, if at all.

Secondly, the marketplace is where most Christians spend their days and their lives and where their Christianity is to be lived out.  Every Christian worker is a “kingdom professional”, a term used by Peter Tsukahira in his book “My Father’s Business” which provides guidelines for ministry in the marketplace.  A “kingdom professional” would intentionally advance the cause of the gospel through whatever means possible.

“Kingdom” teaching has been around for decades, but it gained further attention with Lance Wallnau’s thesis that society needs to be reclaimed for God.  The seven mountains to be reclaimed were spelt out as Family, Religion, Government, Media, Education, Business and the Arts.

Not all churches and Christians have bought into this.  This article merely cites this as a “view” which has driven some churches, while others lay greater store on Jesus’ words that His Kingdom is not of this world and His Great Commission’s emphasis is on making disciples and not changing society.

Irrespective of whether we hold the view that our primary task is to transform lives, or to transform society, we should move away from seeing the marketplace as intrinsically evil to be avoided and survived day by day.

It is also not sufficient to be passive or defensive and keep our faith hidden and our mouths shut.  We should all seek at least to be an influence and do our best to lead people to Jesus.  Those who are able to do more as business owners or leaders should seek to advance the gospel and transform lives and the spiritual landscape of the whole organisation.

This article will cover the following:

  1. The Christian’s place and role in the marketplace.
  2. The agenda or type of ministries already being done and the potential for new ministries.
  3. The challenges Christians and churches face in the marketplace.


The cultural mandate given to Adam as representative man is well accepted belief and work is regarded as good and sacred.  However, while the institution of work is good, not all occupations are moral or God-honouring.  Also, over time, the economic rewards of work have become more prized than the intrinsic value of the work such as how beneficial it is to society.  Success is almost wholly measured by income and profits and wealth accumulation.  The Singapore dream is defined as the 5Cs and even multiples of them, e.g. two condos, two cars.  Instead of just moving with the current, Christians need to remind themselves of Biblical priorities (what shall it profit a man who gains the whole world and loses his soul) and look at work as a means to fulfill God’s plan in the light of the Great Commandments (to love God and our neighbour) and the Great Commission (to make disciples).

Ed Silvoso identified four lethal misbeliefs which have weakened the Christian witness and hampered the advance of the gospel:

  1. There is a God-ordained division between clergy and laity.
  2. The church is called to operate primarily inside the building much like the Old Testament temple.
  3. People involved in business cannot be as spiritual as those serving in traditional church ministry.
  4. The primary role of marketplace Christian is to make money to support the vision of those in the ministry.

The truth lies in understanding God’s plans for mankind and for earth.  Henry and Richard Blackaby’s book “God In The Marketplace” presents an integration of the Christian faith and work.  It covers six general categories of the Christian’s life – personal, family, business, devotional, church and community.  The key point made is that the Christian’s calling is to be like Jesus Christ, i.e. Christ-likeness.  Christians are to honour God in every aspect of their lives, including their work.  And what is “work”?

Work is what we do to glorify God and bless man, and consists of paid work and voluntary work.  The “good works” mentioned in the Bible (Matthew 5:16, Ephesians 2:10, Titus 3:8, Galatians 6:9) may imply voluntary work (labour of love) but surely paid work is not excluded if it glorifies God and is a blessing to man.  After all, we work as unto God and not man (Ephesians 6:5-8, Galatians 3:23-24).  We are God-pleasers, not man-pleasers or eye-pleasers.

From the wages we receive, we are to share with others who are needy (Ephesians 4:28).  Neither do we want to burden others in having to support us if we are able to work (1 Thessalonians 2:8-9).  We also pay our taxes and other dues and are exemplary responsible citizens.

Christians who are employers are to be fair and loving, not withholding wages, exacting too much or exploiting workers, not using deceit (inaccurate weights and measures), not abusing their power (James 5:3-5, Proverbs 11:1).

Christians must stand out from their fellow workers at their workplace by their lives and conduct and speech, which must be characterised by the nine-fold fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), i.e. love, joy, peace, forebearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control and the eight-fold wisdom of God (James 3:17-18), i.e. pure, peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere.

Christians must have the attitude of serving their bosses and fellow workers and Christians bosses must exercise servant-leadership.  They must not seek self-fulfillment like their non-Christian colleagues, but self-denial.  Terms like self-love, self-expression, self-confidence and self-fulfillment have largely replaced the “self” words from the Bible like self-surrender, self-sacrifice, self-denial and self-control.  Besides an exemplary life of Christ-likeness, the Christian must not only be prepared to give an answer when asked about his faith (1 Peter 3:15) but seize every opportunity to share Christ (Ephesians 5:16).


Apart from obeying God’s teaching on how he should conduct himself as a Christian and be a worker worthy of his employment, a Christian needs to think about how he wants to advance the gospel and fulfil the Great Commission.

The majority of workers in Singapore, whether Singapore citizens, permanent residents, or on employment passes, would not step into a church for a variety of reasons – no relevance, no interest, no time, no urgency, etc.  If they are to be reached for Christ, it would have to be in the marketplace or arising from relationships built at work or in social networking.


This point is not lost on Christians, especially the Brethren, who have been in the forefront of evangelism at workplace right from the time of their founders inEurope.  The Brethren movement was primarily a lay movement and the first Brethren inSingapore, Philip Robinson, was himself a businessman.  Besides founding the first assembly at Bencoleen Street, Philip surely would have been a keen witness in his business as well.

The Brethren’s emphasis on the “priesthood of all believers” and the regular teaching of God’s word would equip their members well to be salt and light of the world.  Many Brethren leaders and members had been active in marketplace ministry but often unobtrusively as they live out and share their faith in their various professions, businesses and employment.  In the mid-1900s up to the 1980s, there were rather more in the public sector and professions like medical, dental, legal, architectural, engineering and educational but in the last few decades, we are seeing more leaders and members starting businesses.

There are certain advantages that Christian business owners have over Christians who are employees.  Firstly, they can decide to run their businesses in a “Christian” way.  Secondly, they can hold meetings and programmes like Alpha to advance the gospel in small groups and hold evangelistic meetings during the Easter or Christmas periods.  Thirdly, they can appoint a chaplain or pastor to mentor or build up Christians at their workplace.

Peter Tsukahira’s book “My Father’s Business” relates stories of how Christians have started businesses intentionally in overseas mission fields to employ locals and to evangelise them.  Some churches have also found it necessary to establish businesses to have legitimacy in the mission fields especially in Creative Access Nations.  Michael Baer’s book “Business As Mission” gives examples of entrepreneurs establishing businesses specifically for missions.  Michael Baer’s book “Business As Mission” used the terms “kingdom business” and “kingdom company” which are defined as “a business that is specifically, consciously, clearly and intentionally connected to the establishment of Christ’s kingdom in this world.  In other words, it is directly involved in making disciples of all nations – beginning at home but with international involvement, too.”

A few elders have been able to serve as elders while being tentmakers, i.e. running their own businesses and being able to respond to the needs of their church ministry and other Christian ministry, when necessary.  Others have been active in providing leadership in organisations established to strengthen Christians in the marketplace, e.g. Christian Businessmen Committee (CBMC) and Centre for Christian Entrepreneurship (CCE).

It is also encouraging to see a handful of active Christians in the workplace who had served as lay elders going into full-time service as pastors.  (Their working experiences especially in leadership and management have stood them in good stead and their churches have been blessed with growth.)

Among Christians, Brethrens have several things going well for them in MPM.  Their belief in the “priesthood of all believers” and their commitment to learning God’s word faithfully equip them well to share the gospel.  However, there still seems to be an overreliance on church-based programmes for outreach, e.g. kindergarten, student care, neighbourhood evangelism (e.g. community adoption), evangelistic meetings like Alpha and Just Looking.

There have been attempts at encouraging personal evangelism and courses like Lifestyle Evangelism by the Eagles and the Navigators and Campus Crusade training have helped somewhat, but MPM is still undertapped and underdeveloped.

What more can be done by Brethren churches and Christians?


There are three challenges Christians will have to grapple with.

  1. Define how he is going to live his life and do his work so as to glorify God in secular, materialistic and multi-ethnic and multi-religious Singapore.

    Surveys and research show that generally Christians can scarcely be distinguished from non-Christians in regard to values and conduct.

    How would a Christian living his life in obedience to the word of God be like?  How would a Christian who obeys the word of God be like at work?

    Christians in Singapore have thousands of workers of different nationalities right at their workplace and neighbourhood – a mission at our doorstep.

  2. Decide how to witness for Christ in the marketplace.

    What are the strategies and means and activities?  Is it necessary to form a fellowship of Christians for prayer and for organising evangelistic meetings, e.g. lunch time meetings?  Would one-to-one or a small evangelistic Bible study group be better?

    A few companies have formed fellowships with programmes much like church programmes but with the only difference that these meetings are held in the office.

    We must try all means to reach some (1 Corinthians 9:22).

  3. Decide how to follow up:
    a)    on seekers who are willing to come to church;
    b)    new Christians won; and
    c)     those who are unchurched.

    Is it necessary to have a pastor to oversee MPM and equip members and to do the follow up?

To The Church

There are also three challenges to the church.

  1. Determine the Biblical teaching of the place of the church in the marketplace and teach their members accordingly.
  2. Deploy resources to improve the effectiveness of outreach in the marketplace.  This might include training members to be effective witnesses.  It might include having a pastor or missionary to help the church members to be more effective in their outreach.
  3. Encourage members who are business owners and entrepreneurs to use their existing businesses or start new ones as vehicles for missions.

Could churches and Christians collaborate to set up businesses as missions both in Singapore and overseas?  Could Brethren Network Fellowship be the platform for such co-operation?


Kingdom Christians, kingdom professionals, kingdom companies and businesses must all “seek and save the lost” like Jesus who ministered in houses, villages, seaside, hillside, markets, synagogues, dinners and watering holes.  Paul and the other apostles did likewise.  Until and unless we do likewise, the gospel will be lost on the vast majority of people in the marketplace.

David Choo has been an elder in Bethesda Church Bukit Arang since 1984.  He is a tentmaker from 1985 to date, founding Promiseland Independent Pte Ltd, now a licensed financial advisory company.  He is currently Chairman and Managing Director of the company which has a Christian fellowship called Vineyard Fellowship and organises evangelistic programmes for its staff and representatives.

Reflections On Tracing The Steps Of Jesus

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“IN HIS STEPS” is a Christian novel which I read in the 1970s and, although I have totally forgotten the story, I remember I was impacted by it then.  The title was from 1 Peter 2:21.

21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in His steps.

The book’s challenge was for the church and for Christians to walk in Christ’s steps.
The recent Holy Land Tour by some 40 Bukit Arang members was organised as aHoly Landpilgrimage and was a tracing of the steps which Jesus took.  In my mind, only Muslims and, perhaps, Roman Catholics make spiritual pilgrimages, much less Protestants and least of all Brethren.  No doubt, we are pilgrims (strangers, sojourners, aliens) and life is a daily journey, and hopefully, adventure and growth.  But a pilgrimage in terms of visiting the Holy Land and holy sites did not sit comfortably in my Brethren mind at first, as no land or site can be holy (although, admittedly, Moses was told he was standing on holy ground back then when God spoke to him out of the burning bush).  But, as I visited the various places, I sensed there was much to be gained in understanding better the biblical places and times.  More of this later.

But, firstly, why did I sign up for this journey?  I tried to recall why I had not visited Israel earlier, preferring rather to go fishing in the Maldives in December many times over the last 20 years.

A few years ago, I had actually signed up to join a group to be led by another well-known pastor.  The group comprised Christians from different churches.  Strangely, I withdrew a few months before the trip.

But why was I one of the first few to sign up for this trip?  It was more a visceral response than mental, but I think there are a few reasons.

  1. It was our own church group and certainly more comfortable and more meaningful, more like a small church camp on the move.  And it turned out exactly so.
  2. The years of heavy expenses for my children’s university education were over and I had saved some money to defray the not exactly small travel cost.
  3. Deep down, I felt it was time to see for myself what a difference it would make to my life if I understood better the geography and history of biblical places.  I had heard stories of how the Bible became more alive for many who had visited Israel.

We were asked to list our expectations and to ask the Lord to speak to us as we visited each place during the trip.  I think, like most others, I was hoping for a closer walk with our Lord, but I had a few other questions to which I sought answers.

  1. Praying for healing for one of my friends who had suffered a serious illness;
  2. Praying for God’s guidance on whether our church should have greater emphasis on healing and helping members in need and a ministry to help the poor;
  3. Praying for direction for our church and, in particular, God’s special blessings of revival for which we had prayed.

Like the others, I had a lot of time to pray and, strangely, I found myself not praying for myself often, but for others.  It is not that I do not need anything or am spiritually complacent, but others have more pressing needs.

What I found is that I am powerless to help much except to pray and, even then, my prayer had felt weak.  There had been periods and particular moments in my life when I felt my prayers were more “effective”.  WouldIsraelmake a difference?

There is one struggle that Christians who have responsibility over others face – how would God use their lives and their ministry and prayer to help others?

We all know God hears and answers prayer and, yet, we struggle when there is an apparent “NO” or “WAIT”.  As I knelt at the church built in theGardenofGethsemane, I remembered Jesus’ prayer and how he sweated blood as He faced the painful prospect of the cross.  It was a victorious “Thy Will Be Done”, but that involved His shedding His blood for us.  The Via Dolorosa reminded us powerfully of the extreme physical punishment and spiritual and emotional pain Jesus endured.  It was not easy, though, to enter into the spirit of Jesus’ suffering in the concrete buildings and amidst the bazaars and milling tourists.  But it reminded me that some of God’s answers in His Will are not what man would regard as blessings and circumstances to rejoice over, but we can still rejoice knowing there is a greater good or final blessing for suffering and death.

Many of the spiritual conflicts faced by Christians today are because of our thinking that every experience must be enjoyable from man’s point of view – no pain, no ill health, no poverty, no enemy, no fractured relationship, no persecution, no failures, no loss of jobs, etc.

And, since these do come our way, we think the best thing to do is to get out of it quickly.  And so, our prayers are limited to “God, get rid of this; get me out; remove him or remove her”.

I am not saying that we do not pray and work towards improving one’s lot spiritually, physically and emotionally.  But, I am concerned about what God wants and wishes for us and, if it involves anything which may be viewed as disadvantageous for us from man’s point of view, let us still welcome it.  After all, God knows what is best for us.

At one point, we were asked what we had to leave behind or give up for our Lord and this is a good question.  Jesus said the disciple must be prepared to give up everything for His sake.  What is most needful and right to do is from God’s viewpoint, not ours.  Mary’s example of worshipping at the feet of Jesus and anointing Jesus with the expensive alabaster box of perfume is a strong reminder that it will or may cost us much or all to serve Christ.

At Capernaum, we were powerfully reminded that all the disciples of Jesus left behind businesses, families, comforts and physical safety to follow Jesus and the geography tell us it meant arduous walking, extreme weather conditions and constant threats from bandits and enemies.

Christianity is not easy and following Christ is not a bed of roses this side of heaven.

For us in Singapore, who are used to the security, safety and comforts of life, we often have to choose to go out of our comfort zone to care and minister to others, whether in evangelism, missions or service of the saints.  We were reminded that King David fell into sin when he should have been at war, but chose the comforts of his palace and indulged his roving eyes and appetite from his high vantage position.  How many Christians have fallen into sin or became spiritually weak after looking into certain internet sites or indulged themselves with the good life and trivial pursuits, especially in their retirement years?

The City of David made an interesting visit as we not only saw how important Jerusalem’s security was, but also how vulnerable Jerusalem was to enemies.  Hezekiah’s tunnel to bring water into the walled city was a strong reminder of how we need to be watered constantly and it must be from within like the well or spring and the river of living water Jesus spoke of.

The pool of Solomon and also the pool of Bethesda, only ruins now, nevertheless, spoke of their past usefulness and brought the gospel stories to life.  It was these two sites which gave me the conviction that we should minister to those who are sick and we must look out for them as Jesus saw the predicament of the lame man at the fifth colonnade at the pool of Bethesda.  It is all too easy to avoid them or ensconce ourselves in a different world from them.  How fitting it would be if we in Bethesda could look out for the needy in Singapore and also wider afield.

For many years, I had a tug at my spirit and conscience to minister more to the poor, especially when I read the gospel.  Once poor myself, I remembered how a little help was greatly appreciated.  Jesus and the apostles remembered the poor.  Even when they were on support themselves, they still took collections for the poor.  “Blessed are the poor in spirit” in Matthew 5:3 was recorded simply by Luke as “Blessed are you who are poor” in Luke 6:20.

At Bethany, which means House of Sorrows, we were reminded that Jesus loved to stay at the house of Lazarus, Mary and Martha, even though it was likely a humble house, probably with a single room or, at most, two rooms.  An interesting note about Jesus’ statement, “Foxes have holes, birds in the air have their nests, but the son of man has nowhere to lay his head”, was that Jesus often spent the nights in caves.  In his final weeks when Jesus was in Jerusalem, he preached at the temple but resorted to the Mount of Olives and likely stayed in a cave.  Contrast that with our modern air-conditioned and panelled homes and resorts.

George Barna’s book entiteld “Highly Effective Churches”, which was based on surveys done of highly effective churches, stated that there was an expectation of the church to minister to the community and this included caring for the needy poor, sick, orphans, widows and hurting.

Likewise, I am reminded that there is an expectation that our elders, pastors and other leaders also learn to sacrifice in their service of God.

2 Corinthians 8:9

For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.
The many places which we visited spoke of Jesus’ sacrifice and enduring hardship.  His waking up a great while before dawn to pray, and praying the whole night and agonising at the Garden of Gethsemane must have been in severely cold temperature.  His travels, whether on donkeys or by foot, must have been gruelling as he ascended and descended hilly, unpaved terrain.  I could not help reflecting my army training, though tough, must pale in comparison.  We have become soft and need to toughen up physically and spiritually, and this calls for giving up comforts and happy pleasures and past times which, though pleasurable, do not enrich us spiritually.

At the time for sharing, I really had not formed my thoughts but just wanted to thank all who had made the pilgrimage a blessing.  Unexpectedly, I let out what was really in my heart – my longing for God to revive Bukit Arang.  I was excited that the elders and many active members could experience firsthand the steps of Jesus.  Is this the tipping point for our members to enlarge their faith and deepen their love for God and strengthen their witness and walk?

The morning and evening devotions ministered to many.  I realised that we need to concentrate on digging deeper into God’s word and drink more deeply and chew more into the meat of scriptures.  The Old Testament is a vast treasure trove and holds rich veins of precious stones.  Pastors, elders and teachers of God’s word must study in detail and in depth in order to benefit themselves and be a blessing to others.  It is one thing to feed oneself and quite another to feed others.  Instead of pandering to the hawker fare of God’s word with fast meals, there is a need for slowly chewing on and savouring the rich flavours of God’s word and invite others to feast at God’s table as well.

It is not easy to keep to what we did on the days on pilgrimage when we get back into the daily hustle and bustle with multiple tasks demanding our attention.  For example, for 11 days I did not have to answer calls or emails and meet with staff and others who demand my time and attention.  We have to find a way and keep to it so that we can do what God wants us to do.  The way was laid down for us – to walk as Jesus walked.  The trail should be clearer for those who have traced it.  Others may be encouraged to do it.  And better if you start at a younger age but for the older ones, better late than never.